geo tech talk

[user1]

As a future geo owner (I hope) I am doing alot of reading and watching tech videos on them. One question I do have is I see some people say they remove the vvc (variable volume chamber). Seems to this would make the marker use a ton of air as the area to fill after each shot would be large?

Also I have heard alot of talk about the bumper o ring? Im sure when I have one it's in the manual but where is it located on the sft bolt? About the only problem people have is loosing that oring for any reason and the prop shaft hitting the bolt causing a crack in the propshaft. (in every case I have seen pe has sent them a new propshaft no questions asked.)

On a side not who ever came up with putting the arrows on the bottom of the hpr for + and - pressure should get a medal.

[perses]

idk about removing the vvc screw? post a thread where it tells you about it. but i k now running it all the way in is spsed to give you mor effciency with a lil more kick(virtually non) and a little louder. and all the way out is the opposite of that lil less effcient with alot quiter shot and kick

[SoBeJohn]

i wouldnt even mess with it..

[user1]

I understand what it is and how it works, just wondering why you would want to remove it and what it would do to the marker if you did. On 2nd thought I am never going to remove it if I get one so I guess this thread is useless sorry.

Thanks for the help guys.

[G-FOURce]

i had to back mine all the way out and back the inline reg adjuster all the way to flush with the bottom to get it to shoot at 280fps. i had to open the inline wide open to get it to 275fps with a 10" barrel.

[user1]

what brand tank were you using? I know reading the sticky on the geo that the myth regs require you to purchase the lp sping for the hpr to get it up to 280 fps.

[SoBeJohn]

what brand tank were you using? I know reading the sticky on the geo that the myth regs require you to purchase the lp sping for the hpr to get it up to 280 fps.

thats strange..the myth regs usually work around 600-650 output..

i'll have to give gerry a call to find out exactly what to do..

[user1]

Q: I have a Myth Reg on my tank and I can't get my Geo to Chrono above 200-250
A: You will need a low Pressure spring for your in line regulator.

^took that from the geo sticky at the top of the page, I don't know why either because the geo has low operating pressure. The only thing I can think of is that the noid controls all the bolt operation forward and back. It may require the extra pressure to work correctly but that is just a guess.

what is the dwell at and what is the paint bore match?

[SoBeJohn]

I havent shot mine yet, since i'm debating if its going to sell or not,but i will call G tomorrow and get some springs ordered.. for some reason i dont see the can installed, its in a bag in the box,if for some reason this is in your geo, installled, i believe it needs to come out..its for reball, which will limit your gun to lower fps.

[user1]

that would make sense, I am putting the cart before the horse again. Im sure when I get mine I can find all the info out by looking at the manual and the marker. Now that you mention it I did watch the pe video on bolt maint on the geo and the voulume can was not installed during the video.

[SoBeJohn]

hehe, i started thinking.. and noticed its not installed. and with it installed its supposed to limit you down to 220 fps or so.. kinda makes sense since you cant get it over 270-280. i wont know till the auction is over or until tony shoots his.. will still call and ask tomorrow and get back..

[user1]

you are the man sir.

[perses]

i havent gotten to see what my efficency is like yet but i have mine with the vvc screw all the way in with a dwell of 9 and it was dropping ropes. so hopefully this week i will be able to see what my effciency is like..

[perses]

and your can should always be installed i think your talkng about the black restrictor things that clamp on the prop shaft.

[user1]

yes sorry I called it a can, it's the black thing that clamps around the propshaft like you said. Can't wait to get mine and enjoy it too.

[user1]

First day with the geo :D and I am very happy with it. Def up to pe standards with fit and design.

1st of many questions to come im sure.

The vvc screw seems to have alot of range from all the way in to all the way out. Only question I have is if you back it off at some point it is no longer threaded into the proshaft. It doesn't come out but the adjuster screw is loose inside the back cap. I have tried to feel when or where the all the way out setting is while still having it threaded into the propshaft? Does anyone know how many turns is the max out setting?

I understand how and what it does, it came 6 turns out from the all the way in setting. Just want to see how much change the vvc can make in the feel of the marker.

PIC'S up tonight.

[user1]

^ Never mind I counted a few times and it's like 21 full turns to the point where it is no longer threaded into the cap.

I turned it out to 17 turns and it didn't have the crisp pop it had at 7 turns out. I ended up screwing it all the way in and the sound is only a tiny bit louder but it has that nice pop and crisp shot I loved when I first shot it.

Had a chance to adjust the trigger a bit and found I like the opto the most. Had to play with it until the pin was far enough away from the micro switch. Now it has a smooth feel with no click at the end, it's just a fluid motion. I can't walk a trigger to save my life but when I tried it with the micro switch I could only get around 10-12. With the opto I hit 15 avg which is good for me.

[Melonhead]

I'm glad you like it buddy. That will just make me feel a little bit bad when I steal this from you.

[tblack]

The black thing that comes with the ST bolt is a volumizer. It's made for using reballs in indoor play. Your not going to get your Geo up past 240 fps with it installed. Your not supose to.

Removing the screw from your prop shaft is a no no. Don't do it. The screw does very little when you adjust it. The difference it will make from being all the way in to all the way out is so little that most can't even see the difference. If you are seeing a big difference when you adjust it. Something else is going on with your marker and it's not that. In fact, it's almost a placebo. As a joke from my instructor when I took my PE certification class was that it was only put there for people who like to tinker with their markers can feel like they are doing something. That's how little adjusting that screw does. In short. The only adjusting you should do to anything on a Geo is after about 10-12 cases. You might have it broken in enough to drop your dwell down a hair... "Might" ...and that is only on a few Geos. Not all of them will do well lowering your dwell. In short. It's almost always better to not tinker. Almost every PE marker that I see with issues is caused by poor up keep or someone tinkered with it...

[user1]

Thanks for all the info sir, I was just wondering what the vvc screw would do to the feel. It is all the way in and everything is else is stock and going to stay that way.

[SoBeJohn]

i wouldnt even mess with it..

double or nothing.

[tblack]

^^bingo^^

I know it's tempting to tinker. But you paid for a highend. In other words. You got a PE so you wouldn't have too. They rip straight out of the box.

No titaniam rammer, no after market bolt. These upgrades are placebos made just to take your money. In fact, in most cases, they will do harm. Rule of thumb when it comes to so called upgrades for a PE marker is. If it didn't come from PE. Don't use it. They work very hard at perfecting their stuff. So are you going to trust another company to make an actual emprovement part? This isn't a Tippmann cosmetic upgrade... These things are so well designed that changing the weight of the rammer and bolt on an Ego by a gram or two will cause it not to open the valve fully. These so called upgrades can only hurt your markers.

[user1]

true, got the geo+ for that reason it had the sft already installed. Open box and let it fly sounds like a fine idea to me.

[DriverJ]

Q: I have a Myth Reg on my tank and I can't get my Geo to Chrono above 200-250
A: You will need a low Pressure spring for your in line regulator.

^took that from the geo sticky at the top of the page, I don't know why either because the geo has low operating pressure. The only thing I can think of is that the noid controls all the bolt operation forward and back. It may require the extra pressure to work correctly but that is just a guess.

what is the dwell at and what is the paint bore match?

The stock HPR piston is designed for a higher output pressure to be received. Replacing the spring allows the HPR to accept the lower input pressure and still maintain the rest of the settings without making a ton of adjustments.

[tblack]

Now this is interesting. I have always said that you shouldn't use a LP reg with a PE marker for reasons like these. Bu I keep getting told that a PE marker will work fine on a LP reg.... Imagine that. Someone is having issues with an LP reg...

[SoBeJohn]

Thats really strange to me.. we're sponsored by Guerrilla Air. they dont have a preference or options for high or low pressure regs.. they are all standard regs, and for that reason they are actually mid pressure. due to minor spring tolerances they ALL output between 600 and 650 .I dont see why you'd have an issue, ( and i cant recall anyone having any except a busted oring on the fill nipple) but if need be, it wouldnt hurt to bleed your tank and take your reg apart and see whats going on..being that its GA, its completely rebuildable, PLEASE REMEMBER NOT TO LUBE WHEN REBUILDING YOUR GA REG.
If you find something wrong, let me know I have all spare parts to rebuild any GA Reg

good luck

[Krez]

I have to disagree. I have the TechT bolt and it is an improvement above stock. That's just me. From what I've heard everyone who has a TechT bolt loves it

[SoBeJohn]

I dont know about the tech t bolt, but if you decide to contact Gerry Bates for his input, the only Eclipse upgrade he would endorse is Kila Magnetic Detents.. ( yes i have some on order on the way for a couple Geo's as well)

[Krez]

Hmm didn't know that. I may have to pick up a few.

[Big Daddy]

The Kila's rock! I was a hard sell at first, but no more. In my Ego, they are like butta! lol

[Krez]

Nice!! I'll grab em from ya tomorrow John.

[tblack]

I had those detents in an 08 a while back. Didn't have any issues. But I will stand by Jerry Bates here. I would never advise using any other rammer or bolt in am Ego other than one from PE or one they advise.

TechT...lol it may work but if it does. I guarantee you that they didn't put the research in it that PE puts in theirs. So which do you trust in high end marker? I know people that have less money in their cars than people have in some PE markers. TechT.... Really? I'll bet my money on PE. I have yet to see someone show me a rammer or bolt that did not lead to issues that wasn't produced by PE. Before I hear about Violents stuff for the 05-06. That is the PE sick kit for those years. They continued making them when PE stopped. I think they have quit making them now too. Not the titanium scammer, I mean rammer. I mean the real zick.

[DriverJ]

Now this is interesting. I have always said that you shouldn't use a LP reg with a PE marker for reasons like these. Bu I keep getting told that a PE marker will work fine on a LP reg.... Imagine that. Someone is having issues with an LP reg...

From what I have heard it was less of an issue with the Ego, than it was with the Geo. My Geo would bounce around the 260 range with my Myth tank before I swapped in the LP HPR spring. After it jumped up to the 285 range and stayed their consistently. My Ego would shoot 28oish no problem with the same bottle setup, but its much more inconsistent than my CP tank regulator. From what I understand the GA regs don't have as good of a recharge rate as some other regs.
I'm still perfectly happy with the GA reg

[user1]

Do you guys know which o ring is the bumper o ring? I have seen post about people loosing the bumper o ring and cracking the prop shaft if they continue to play without it. I would like to know which one it is so I can keep an eye on it.

[user1]

found something interesting tonight, A pic of a marker (geo 1) with the geo 2 propshaft installed in it. So that means when it comes out you can upgrade to the new drivetrain and install it in your gen 1 geo.

[DriverJ]

found something interesting tonight, A pic of a marker (geo 1) with the geo 2 propshaft installed in it. So that means when it comes out you can upgrade to the new drivetrain and install it in your gen 1 geo.

Correct, the Geo2 internals will fit the original.
No word yet on weather Planet will make it available as an upgrade.

[user1]

I heard a rumor that they would come out 4mo after the geo 2 release

[tblack]

Hmmm interesting

[DriverJ]

I heard a rumor that they would come out 4mo after the geo 2 release

I'm hoping thats true, I really want to upgrade my Vicious Geo as opposed to buying a new gun.

[G-FOURce]

i think thats solid of PE to design the drivetrain for the Geo2 so that it will function with the Geo1. i dont own either, but if i still had my Geo i would definitely have wanted an improved drivetrain for it. sweet...

[SoBeJohn]

Do you guys know which o ring is the bumper o ring? I have seen post about people loosing the bumper o ring and cracking the prop shaft if they continue to play without it. I would like to know which one it is so I can keep an eye on it.

maybe this thread will help you..

http://www2.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3204513

[Iktinos]

Thats really strange to me.. we're sponsored by Guerrilla Air. they dont have a preference or options for high or low pressure regs.. they are all standard regs, and for that reason they are actually mid pressure. due to minor spring tolerances they ALL output between 600 and 650 .I dont see why you'd have an issue, ( and i cant recall anyone having any except a busted oring on the fill nipple) but if need be, it wouldnt hurt to bleed your tank and take your reg apart and see whats going on..being that its GA, its completely rebuildable, PLEASE REMEMBER NOT TO LUBE WHEN REBUILDING YOUR GA REG.
If you find something wrong, let me know I have all spare parts to rebuild any GA Reg

good luck

What's odd to me is that I went to GA last year. Got a chance to sit down and chew the fat, so to speak, with Dan. He not only gave me some additional springs to change out with any other Myths that ping (I had one, and it does not bother me at all), but GA specific lube. I have also talked with the GA gals that work the front office, and they also mentioned the lube. Don't use DOW 33 or 55, use Chemplex 710. That is the recommended lube from GA, Mary is the one that told me.

[DriverJ]

i think thats solid of PE to design the drivetrain for the Geo2 so that it will function with the Geo1. i dont own either, but if i still had my Geo i would definitely have wanted an improved drivetrain for it. sweet...

Doesn't honestly shock me. Its easier for them to not completely redesign the firing system and it makes it easier for testing so they can send it to owners of the previous generation of gun to test before mass production. Its also been something they've kept with from gun generations. rammers/bolts have been compatible with 07+ guns and 05-06 guns.

I think its also great for users especially as the paintball economy suffers more. That way Eclipse can release the guns for those who can drop that cash and then wait 6-12 months and release the internals for those who want a taste of the Geo2 performance but don't want to give up their original Geo.

IMO fantastic way to operate. That way they also don't have to continue to manufacture Geo1 parts for a long time so if they want they can stop and then if someone wants their original geo to continue to operate they can hopefully get those parts from Eclipse.

Just makes sense to me.

[BS139]

I'm leaning towards picking up a Geo2 when the local shop gets them in.
I'd like to get a nice c/f tank for it. I've seen comments about Guerilla myths possibly causing probs. Any diff between the myth and myth 2 or should I just pick up a Ninja or similar?

B.:canada:

[Iktinos]

If you get a Geo2, then you don't need to worry about it. If you get an older Geo, because of the HPR, then you will want to talk to GA about getting the high pressure option. It replaces the piston and spring to give you an output pressure of 850 PSI, give or take. And get the G2 over the original Myth for a couple of reasons. There is a low side burst disk on it, which the original did not have, and you can adjust your reg for when it is screwed all of the way onto your marker. So if you don't want your fill nipple sticking directly into your wrist, you can adjust it so that the fill nipple is straight up, or down, or whatever.

[BS139]

Cool. Thanks for the info. Rep'd.

B.

[tigar19]

Or get a Ninja tank that has a super easy adjustable regulator 550-850. I own a 50/45 and a 68/45 and love both perform flawlessly!

However, I thought it didn't matter because they (the Geo) came with a HP and a LP spring?

[Iktinos]

Or get a Ninja tank that has a super easy adjustable regulator 550-850. I own a 50/45 and a 68/45 and love both perform flawlessly!

However, I thought it didn't matter because they (the Geo) came with a HP and a LP spring?

You can get a low pressure spring for the Geo, but the reg on the Geo2 is specifically designed to work with high, low, or mid pressure tanks. I would think that you would be able to use any reg with a Geo, but you loose out on the PCV ability, unless you can simply add that to any reg. If so, then you could use a Sidewinder, or CP, or whatever, and you would not need to worry about the input pressure from your tank.

[tigar19]

What's PCV ability?

[Iktinos]

The PCV is the little plastic golf tee looking thing in the macro fitting of your HPR. Now I don't know if it is something that could be used with any reg, or specific to the PE 09 regs, but when you bleed out your air, it keeps the air in the marker from accidentally discharging your marker. I was just reading how someone had one break on theirs, and asked if it was okay to still use. The answers were pretty much a yes, but keep your barrel bag on the end of your barrel, after you turn off your air, as the Geo will shoot when the air bleeds out. Not sure why that is, and it seems to still happen when it is turned off. So if you want to use a low or mid pressure tank with your Geo, and don't want to change the stock reg with the low pressure stuff, then use any of the other regs out there, just be aware that when you turn off the purging on/off, you need to know that your marker will discharge the air in the chamber through the firing of it's system.

[DriverJ]

If you get a Geo2, then you don't need to worry about it. If you get an older Geo, because of the HPR, then you will want to talk to GA about getting the high pressure option. It replaces the piston and spring to give you an output pressure of 850 PSI, give or take. And get the G2 over the original Myth for a couple of reasons. There is a low side burst disk on it, which the original did not have, and you can adjust your reg for when it is screwed all of the way onto your marker. So if you don't want your fill nipple sticking directly into your wrist, you can adjust it so that the fill nipple is straight up, or down, or whatever.

You can also get the LP Reg spring for the Geo. Either option works.
The Myth G2 is a great reg but a bit spendy if you can find it on a tank go for it.

You can get a low pressure spring for the Geo, but the reg on the Geo2 is specifically designed to work with high, low, or mid pressure tanks. I would think that you would be able to use any reg with a Geo, but you loose out on the PCV ability, unless you can simply add that to any reg. If so, then you could use a Sidewinder, or CP, or whatever, and you would not need to worry about the input pressure from your tank.

The stock Eclipse regs are superior to CP and most others. The sidewinder or 2 liter would be about the same and just alter the stock appearance. You can really use just about any reg with the Geo, but you will lose out on the bleed off. So I wouldn't recommend switching to any aftermarket reg.
Really on high ends guns like the Ego and Geo (and even the Etek) you don't need to upgrade the reg. Now if we were talking shockers, Ions or some older high ends switching to a CP or other after market reg is a better bet IMO.

[Iktinos]

You can also get the LP Reg spring for the Geo. Either option works.
The Myth G2 is a great reg but a bit spendy if you can find it on a tank go for it.

I already mentioned getting the LP reg spring, but it would be better to get a high pressure kit for the Myth reg. And the high pressure kit will work in either of the Myth regs, the original or the G2.

The stock Eclipse regs are superior to CP and most others. The sidewinder or 2 liter would be about the same and just alter the stock appearance. You can really use just about any reg with the Geo, but you will lose out on the bleed off. So I wouldn't recommend switching to any aftermarket reg.
Really on high ends guns like the Ego and Geo (and even the Etek) you don't need to upgrade the reg. Now if we were talking shockers, Ions or some older high ends switching to a CP or other after market reg is a better bet IMO.

Again, I already mentioned the lack of the PCV ability, or as you call it, the bleed off (Same thing), if you go with any other reg. I would love to see some of the same tests with the PE regs that haveblue did with the other regs. The CP, if I remember correctly, was only slightly below the AKA Sidewinder, and the AKA 2Liter was the best, with the fastest recharge rate out there. Of course, this was back during the firepower war, where everyone was trying to get the fastest marker, that could actually shoot 45+ BPS.

[user1]

Let's for instance say that you have a normal Geo (not Geo+ - more on that later), and the 12.5ms stock dwell is actually enough for the firing chamber to be emptied of air (not saying that is necessarily the case, but just for this example, let's say it is).

This is remembering the fact that the Geo fires from a fixed volume of air. Air doesn't free flow through the can, and doesn't refill the can until the cycle is completed, so once the chamber is empty, it's empty.

So you fire a shot, and the can is emptied. Would it actually matter if you increased dwell at this point? Nope, because no matter how long you keep the bolt forward no more air flows once the can is emptied. Even if the stock dwell doesn't empty the can, you could only waste a limited amount of air by increasing the dwell (whatever is left in the can after 12.5ms of dwell has passed) before the can were empty, at which point no amount of additional dwell would matter.

Of course, in the Geo or Geo+, you have the VVC adjustment, that allows you to play with the volume of air available to propel the ball, so dwell can have an effect on the amount of air released in a given time, if you adjust the amount of air available, but you will still reach a point where additional dwell has no effect, due to all the air already having vented.

Long story short, while it is possible to release more air than you really need to get the ball up to speed (all depending on dwell, VVC setting and HPR pressure), you can't really go *too* far wrong due to the marker firing from a fixed volume of air.

So that is one reason for increasing dwell not necessarily - or not greatly - reducing efficiency. Quite simply, depending on how the marker is set up, you'll be releasing little if any extra air by increasing dwell.

Getting back to the specific instance of using a Geo+ (or installing an ST kit in a Geo), the explanation is a little different. The ST kit actually *needs* a longer dwell setting than the stock bolt kit in order to have the same effect, so there is little if any change in the time that the ST bolt is actually forwards, releasing air to propel the ball, even though we have increased the dwell by 2ms over the stock setting for the stock bolt kit. This is because the bolt moves slower with the ST kit than with the bolt kit.

Again, this is just an example, not representative figures of the actual performance of the two bolt kits. With that in mind, lets say that it takes 2.5ms for the stock bolt to move forwards, leaving 10ms for air to flow through the bolt. Let's assume again that that dwell time is enough for all the air to be released.

Now lets say that with the ST bolt kit, the bolt now takes 4.5ms to move forwards, due to the slower cycle. If we stick with the 12.5ms stock dwell, that leaves only 8ms for the air to be released from the chamber. That may mean that chamber does not empty, and with less air being released, your velocity may drop, and consistency could suffer.

With the lower bolt speed of the ST kit, all we do by adding 2ms dwell, is give the bolt the additional time it needs to move forwards, so that the firing chamber still has the same length of time (10ms) to empty.

^got this off the pbn, interesting info but I think it is true, my geo+ is great at a dwell of 14.5 with the vvc two turns from all the way in.

[Melonhead]

Thanks for the info mongo. Now find me differences between Geo/Geo+/Geo2!

[user1]

geo=good

geo+ everything that make the geo good plus the sft bolt (like the hush bolt) gr2 kit (new prop shaft, hpr piston, and screws with thread lock on them), and thumb wheel on the feed neck.

geo 2 new longer frame, new hpr that can use any tank pressure, larger screen, driven core (spring loaded valve) it traps some of the air in the can which makes it more eff, new shaft barrel kit with a longer control bore

same noid, and sft kit found in the geo+

Now it's just a math problem if the geo 2 upgrades are worth the extra cash :rolleyes:

Geo 2 will have much better resale value

[Melonhead]

Sweet. Thanks!

[user1]

just for fun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t2MydlfArw

[user1]

hmmmm now I want one :yes nod:

[Melonhead]

Just sell the Geo+ and we can both buy one. I'll probably just have mine shipped to dbug right away though.

[user1]

I love my baby, it may not be the geo 2 but it has done everything I could ever want a marker to do. Im thinkin use the geo+ and wait for the geo 3 to come out.

[tigar19]

geo=good

geo+ everything that make the geo good plus the sft bolt (like the hush bolt) gr2 kit (new prop shaft, hpr piston, and screws with thread lock on them), and thumb wheel on the feed neck.

geo 2 new longer frame, new hpr that can use any tank pressure, larger screen, driven core (spring loaded valve) it traps some of the air in the can which makes it more eff, new shaft barrel kit with a longer control bore

same noid, and sft kit found in the geo+

Now it's just a math problem if the geo 2 upgrades are worth the extra cash :rolleyes:

Geo 2 will have much better resale value

Geo2 board also has e-portal ability but the e-portal connection is not included.

[DriverJ]

Out of random curiousity has does anyone own both Geo and Geo2? Anyone tried swapping the frame /board combo or the prop assembly to a Geo 1?

I'm curious what will work :D

[user1]

the geo 2 bolt can prop will work in the geo 1, but the geo 1 will not work in the geo 2.

[Iktinos]

I know the prop shaft, the only difference between the Geo+ or a GSTed Geo and a Geo2, are swapable. Not sure about the grip frame and board. Not sure why you would want to swap a Geo2 grip frame with an original Geo body.

[DriverJ]

Because I have an original Geo and may want to get the Geo2 frame and board so I can make boot screens etc with Eportal

the geo 2 bolt can prop will work in the geo 1, but the geo 1 will not work in the geo 2.

Will the GST can and bolt work with the Geo2 prop? or does the Geo2 can and bolt have to be used?

[user1]

hmm I think the bolt and can are the same but not 100% sure

[Iktinos]

I believe the original GST can and bolt are the same as the Geo2 can and bolt. From everything that I have seen, and been told by local PE techs, the only thing different is the prop shaft, which is backwards compatible with the Geo and Geo+.

As to the grip frame, I can't honestly answer that. I don't know if the bolt holes on the body match up with the bolt holes on the grip.